neba should reoil after each squad

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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby justinu7 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:21 pm

no need for cussing lol, thought Farmer was arguing that. Leave the reoiling the way it is, everyone has their option on what squad to bowl.
Last edited by justinu7 on Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby michbowl » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:59 am

Who is talking about LEFT / RIGHT ???????????

Talking about the fairness of qualifying on FRESH / VS one squad being already bowled on......

Keep that shit off the board please....
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby TReynaud » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:11 am

Russ.

I did mention left/right in my long post but definitely not in any derogatory way. First and foremost that is not my style and secondly I have a ton of respect for the lefties that bowl NEBA. Our lefties are some of the best lefties in the country. While you are right that we are talking about the fairness of bowling two squads on fresh and one squad that’s already been bowled, I am jumping ahead and talking about the consequences of moving the re-oiling from the finals back to 12:30. It is here where the lefty/righty thing is very relevant to any discussion about oiling. I have said this before and I will say it again. Breakdown is the enemy of our game. I would imagine anyone that understands this great game realizes this is very true. The simple fact is that new age bowling equipment breaks down the lanes pretty quickly. If you bowl the national’s breakdown is a strategy to give your team a better shot of winning. Another very true fact is when breakdown starts occurring there will be an advantage most of the time on one side of the lane or the other. The doubles tournament was a perfect example. The lanes started out pretty tough on both sides of the lanes. The righties were able to break down the lanes and our side opened up by 12:30 squad. Probably even before that, probably by the third game of the 9AM squad. When we re-oiled for the finals both sides of the lanes were back to even. The point I am trying to drive home here is this. Since we don’t have time to oil before the 12:30 squad and then again for the finals, when is the most important time to have it equal on both sides of the lane, the 12:30 squad or the finals? I say hands down for the finals for a number of reasons. The finals is where the money is distributed and where championships are won. The finals is where BOTY is decided. The finals are the most important part of the tournament. On top of that all bowlers can choose what squad they want to bowl on. Furthermore there are squads cuts, and on top of that at the end of the day what are we talking about 2, 3, 4 at large spots that will be affected by the breakdown in lanes? Are we going to create inequality in the finals, the most important part of the day, to protect 3 or 4 at large spots which really do work out in the wash at the end of the year? Add to that do we really want to risk screwing up the whole format of the tournament by moving the 9AM squad earlier and possibly moving the 12:30 squad later. That seems very risky to me just to protect a few at large spots. It is a minor flaw in our tourney but I rather have the flaw at 12:30 then in the finals. When the lanes are breaking down at 12:30 during qualifying, and one side or the other is gaining the advantage, it still should be okay for most of the bowlers because they aren’t really bowling against one bowler just a cut score. During match play that is a completely different story. My obvious vote says keep oiling for the finals.

Brian, your idea isn’t a bad one but the downside is people will start complaining about the strength of the squad they bowled on. The next argument will be I had 70% champions on my squad and my buddy made the cut with a lower score because he bowled on a weaker squad. The bottom line it is a very hard sport on many levels to run a tournament without some snags. I think our board and employees have done a great job of working out most of them. I would hate to make changes that actually send us backwards.

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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby michbowl » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:03 am

Tony,

I didn't mean to refleck on anyone or anybody specificly. The controversey over left vs. right will always be they're.

Tony, I totally understand your argument, and you make a good one. However if your looking at the whole picture here what bowlers are looking for is the fairest way to qualify and the fairest to decide a champion. I can't believe that you truly believe that by continuing the way we are now that this provides the fairest way?

All qualify on Fresh and all come back and pick up where they're left off in qualifying, is that not the most fairest way? This is only my opinion, is it the right one? Who knows, but if you dispell this without trying it how good of an organization is NEBA.....We've always have been a great Tournament to bowl and have been very inovative with how we handle adversity, why not try this format at some point??? That will only be the way to tell if this is a possibility or not.

As always, this is a GREAT TOURNAMENT to bowl and it will always be. Nothing is perfect keep that in mind, but the people in charge try very hard, and without a lot of credit mind you. Only again my thoughts. :D
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby TReynaud » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:37 am

Russ.

I do agree that the controversy over left/right will always be there but I would say we have that pretty much completely minimized with the set up we have right now. I think oiling at 12:30 instead of the finals will reopen that door that we worked so hard to close. I too look for the fairest way to qualify and the fairest way to crown a champion. Right now we have the fairest way to crown a champion, and if we move the oiling to 12:30 we may have the fairest way to qualify but for sure we will lose the fairest way to crown the champion. We are stuck deciding on the lesser of two evils. Since crowning a champion is more important I say the tournament is doing it the right way now. I am not saying the qualifying is completely fair right now but I do think it is pretty darn close for a few reasons. In the old days NEBA used to take the top 32 or 48 from across all squads. This is where bowling on one squad or the other could make a big difference. Now NEBA has squad cuts. This really makes up for the fact that the 12:30 isn’t bowled on the fresh. This leaves two issues, the at large cut gets skewed to 25% to 30% of the time and also bowlers that qualify at 12:30 see a tighter lane condition in the finals. As I do agree this issues are worth talking about I do think we have enough facts in front of us that tell me taking action will just move a problem from 12:30 to the finals. Right now bowlers have a choice on what squads they want to bowl on. I have driven over 2 hours each way on a Saturday night to bowl just because I felt that squad would give me the best chance. The point is bowlers are in control of what squads they want to bowl. As far as the 12:30 having to go from hooking to fresh, I think last months tournament proves the adjustment is very possible for scratch bowlers. If we move the oiling back to 12:30 and we end up bowling each other in the finals I would say there is a 50-50 chance one of us will have an advantage that can make a difference on the outcome of the tournament. I really feel we have enough data in front of us to say I am not guessing about this. I think more importantly I really don’t see oiling fresh for all 3 squads really changing the make up of the finalist much, maybe a couple guys here and there 30% of the time. Being on the NEBA board is much like being in business, it is important to consider the risk reward when you make major fundamental moves. To make a major move like not oiling for the finals, and possibly changing squad times, for a problem that isn’t always there and at the end of the day does not really change the make up of the finalist by much, is flat out a bad idea. I know there are many that agree with me and there are many that would like to see oiling at 12:30. I am just not sure those in favor of 12:30 are considering the serious consequences that I have outlined in a number of posts. This is a good discussion though and this NEBA website needed one.


PS Maybe we can get a few guys to come down on Friday or Saturday in July or August and Play some golf at some point over the weekend?
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby istrike4u » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:32 pm

Tony,

You know I respect your opinion, its valuable. But a thread with 25 posts, from 10 different posters, on a website that hasn't had a decent thread in months tells me otherwise. I also understand your side, you have won twice since this change took effect. That also tells me your bias to this issue. The conditions NEED to be the same for all qualifying squads, especially if we are using a modified pattern. PERIOD.

NEBA, just like its counterpart PBA, will lose good people if it follows their path. And YES entries are down some, I agree with that post. Just use the one center East Prov. Last years events had 283 sing and 128 doub. This year they drew 223 and 172 both sing. You can argue the econemy, but it was worse last year. From my point NEBA has made several test changes, use this and move forward.

Just my opinion...

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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby TReynaud » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:04 am

Steve

I also respect your opinion on many levels. First one as a friend, second one as a great bowler, and last but not least as a very good businessman. This thread is a nice discussion for a board that has been pretty dead over the past year. I don’t think the thread itself supports the need for change. I counted 8 different posters with an opinion and the score seems like it is 4-4 at this point. I promise you my personal performance has nothing to do with my feelings about oiling for the finals. Yes I have won twice since we started to re-oil for the finals but don’t forget I won twice in 2009 before we made this changed. Your logic would say that in 2009 since I won twice I would have pushed for no change. That wasn’t the case even though I won twice I was pushing hard for a change because I felt that is was what was best for NEBA. I look at the chemistry of champions and the top 4 since the re-oiling has taken place and I think the results speak for themselves. This year alone we have had lefty winners, straight righty’s and righties that hook it a ton. February speaks volume about how well this is working as we bowled on two wall shots at EP and New Bedford. One champion throws it dead straight and the other hooks it a ton. Just last month my semi final match tells the same story. Marcel Lessard and I lost 475-472 to Steve Fiume and Chris Wujak. This is two straight guys against two guys that hook it, Steve doesn’t even use his thumb, and the scoring pace was dead even. You can not get that equality unless the lanes are dead fresh for the finals. That is the point and that should be the end of story. I think the guys who feel 12:30 NEEDS to be oiled are forgetting the fact that NEBA has made up for the different lane conditions by having SQUAD CUTS. Your point about entries being down isn’t fair also. I would state that entries in 2010 were the best for a long time and we re-oiled ¾ of the year. We then had a $10 price increase starting in January and Entries have been a bit softer since then. The second EP tournament this year was a $150 entry fee so we can’t compare that one. The doubles in Cranston entries were very close so I am hoping the rest of the year turns out good. In short I would say re-oiling for the finals will have a long term positive effect on the tournament. I just went back and looked at Greg Flamand. He has 10 entries this year which is more then he had in 2007, 2008, 2009.2010 combined. My Friend Marcel has 6 entries this year. That is the same as his 2009, 2010 combined. I am sure there are many other good examples to prove progress. We have only been re-oiling for the finals just over a year. I feel it would be prudent to not make any changes for at least 2 more years to see what the longer term effect would be. The thing is if we make too many more changes too quickly we won’t be able to pin point possible mistakes if the tournament suffers. The other thing the 12:30 re-oil was discussed last board meeting and the timing issue was too big of a factor to move forward with the discussion.
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby istrike4u » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:18 pm

Tony,

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one cause I'm not convinced. I am very sorry to say I personally have and will continue to bowl less events because I dont get home until late, usually without dinner. Add that to the 12:30 squad on the burn is slowly becoming the china squad, mostly because the club is using modified house patterns and every one I've bowled seems to be 39-44 ft. and plays like the shark. So in reality, I would have to spend the extra $$ and play on Sat night or Sund am to get a fair look on the fresh. As it would, even that didn't fair too well in Cranston as we were first in the at large and got crowbarred. But if as you say players are bowling more because of it, I guess it will certainly be for the better... only time will tell.

TTYS
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby TReynaud » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:15 am

Steve.

I have a few more thoughts on this interesting topic. I think oiling the whole house for12:30 will not get you home any earlier it most likely will get you home later. I would imagine living where you NH guys live, many tournaments are inconvenient to get to. I do a lot of driving myself. On 3 occasions in the past six months I drove over two hours on a Saturday night and back home just because I like bowling Saturday night. One time in EP I went back the next day and bowled one game for my 4 hour return round trip. So I do understand about the extra expenses of living far away. As far as the NEBA shot I feel it is fine. Maybe you are just hitting the tournaments with the modified condition, but if you look at the cut scores in my above post I think you will see how we have had some high scores, some medium scores, and some low scores. I am not sure I would mess with that formula too much. I feel it is fun to bowl on a variety on conditions.

One thing that does stand out in my mind is you left the tournament with a sour taste in your mouth and I can see why 100%. When bowlers leave the centers with a bad taste in their mouth they are far less likely to be thinking about showing up again anytime soon. It was the same thing for me after bowling too many finals on the complete burn before re-oiling and no practice started. It had an impact on how far I was willing to travel to bowl NEBA. The flip side to that coin is I only missed 2 NEBAs since March 09 because the board took positive action in a few areas to make better conditions in the finals. What happened to you and your partner wasn’t a good thing for the tournament and it is definitely worth putting all our heads together to figure out how we can improve to see if we can stop this from happening too often. I am fully convinced NEBA shouldn’t re-oil 12:30 instead of the finals. That would create a host of other problems that I mentioned numerous times in my other post. Having said that it doesn’t mean there isn’t a more creative way to attack this problem. Maybe Brian Gaskill was on to something about adjusting the way the at large gets figured out. We had 10 Entries Saturday Night. I think about 43 Sunday morning and 55 Sunday afternoon totaling 108 Entries. For this tournament we did qualify 1 out 4.5. In a perfect world that would mean the qualifiers from each squad should have been represented like this. Saturday night 2, Sunday morning 9 and Sunday afternoon 12 with one spot left over and that would have gone to the next highest score which came off of 12:30. Actual tournament results went like this Saturday night 1, Sunday morning 7 and Sunday afternoon 16. Before putting this all on paper it appeared Sunday afternoon stole a lot of at large spots. It turns out the at large was only messed up by 3 positions because the Sunday afternoon squad was the largest, so it should have had the most qualifiers come from it. Either way one of those 3 positions was you and I can understand your frustration with it. So I still come from the school of thought that you don’t make drastic changes to fix those 3 positions, such as changing squads times and messing up the fresh oil for the finals. However maybe we do have to look into the way the at large is figured. Maybe by making some changes we could take the different condition at 12:30 out of play even more then the squads cuts are currently providing. The board will have to put deep thought into this to see what other can of worms may be opened with changed. In short I do concede on how you feel and the issue is definitely worth addressing, but the answer is not moving the re-oiling from the finals back to 12:30. I know in my heart that isn’t the right solution for this problem.


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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby istrike4u » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:23 am

Tony,

When sombody feels as strongly as you and works this hard to make the point stick, its hard to argue. But it will always be my opinion. That isn't the first time all the at large came off the 1230 squad, I'm usually the benefactor of it cause I only bowl that squad. Add that to I would preferr to have to make shots and bowl on tougher legal conditions. BUT as long as there are more entries on the last squad and shots are tougher, its a proven fact that the lanes carve in and scoring will get better, seriously, just look at PBA. It is definately a good thread, just wish all of the bowlers would get involved in good serious forum talk and bowling wouldn't be a thing of the past.

Thanks for a great debate your very convincing, just not going to change me on the issue.

BTW, you should be in NH this year in Oct its a GREAT weekend..

Steve
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby Gasman » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:37 am

Tony,

If memory serves me correctly, there were only 3 fresh pairs at 1230 so I think it was 46 entries in the morning and 52 in the afternoon so you may have to readjust your figures.
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby Younger33 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:45 am

In my opinion this is almost a dead end subject. Regardless of what it is or could be changed to half are going to want it changed and the other half are going to want it the same. I have been bowling NEBA for about 2 years now and one thing I know, when I stick around to watch match play regardless of the shot/breakdown the same 70% of guys are in the match play portion of the tournament. Now this is irrelevant to the cut being +30 or the cut being +200 and also irrelevant to breakdown of the lanes. Their is a reason you see the same faces bowling at 4:00, and I don't think it has anything to do with oil/pattern/breakdown/carry/righty/lefty.....it's because they are in the top tier of bowlers and are better at adjusting on the given condition of the lanes on a consistent basis.

I could actually see re oiling for 12:30 being a valid point IF the 9:00 squad filled up every tournament thus shutting people out...but it isn't the case so if you want to bowl on the fresh it really is as simple as wake up early and get there for 9....if the shot is going to be modified and you feel it is going to be opened up at 12:30 then sleep in and get there for 12:30, after all we do have the option of when we want to bowl.

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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby wujekcity » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:57 pm

i agree with Tony, i think the team that won is awesome! see ya at 1230 =)
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Re: neba should reoil after each squad

Postby TReynaud » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:45 pm

Steve,

Hopefully I will be able to sneak away and hit the tournament in OCT. TTYS
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